"Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us."
In this section of the Bible, Paul gives Titus some teaching on relationships between older women and younger women and between older men and younger men. It does not take one long to find out what type of lingo is used within the church today. You could in a very short time assess within a church that young men are encouraged to go out seeking an older man to mentor them. It's upon hearing this very often over the last few years that has led me to search out the Scriptures to see why much has been made in the way of this teaching.
I do not come today with an exhaustive list of Scriptures to state my case as I am not seeking to write a book on the subject, but one Scripture in particular [seen above] I believe deals fairly thoroughly with the matter.
So let's examine Paul's exhortation. He said older women are to so train the young women. He also said [the men should] urge the younger men to be self-controlled. And lastly, as for ourselves, Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.
In other words, all older women are to be out living their lives seeking younger women to teach and train up. All older men are to be living their lives seeking the younger men to teach and train up and be self-controlled. And everyone, old and young, female and male, are to show their lives as good examples for all others to follow.
In our church, we have sought to apply the words of our Apostle Paul fervently. I ask the people of God, "Is there someone younger than you?" And then I say like Paul, "Train them up." In this way, all people are being looked after and discipled. This way, all people are mentoring others. Then the question arises, "What about the oldest people?" "Who mentors them?" It's funny because Paul never deals with that, does he? Paul never found the seventy year old and said, "Now make sure you go out and find someone who is older than you so they can mentor you."
Paul does the opposite. He says to the seventy year old, train up the younger and be an example to all. He says to the thirty year old, train up the younger and be an example to all. He says to the fifteen year old, train up the younger and be an example to all.
Can you imagine what would happen if much were made of Paul's teaching to Titus? Can you imagine if everyone started living these truths? Can you imagine if everyone found someone younger than them to teach and train? Can you imagine if everyone started being a good example to others?
I think all our bases would be covered. I think God would oversee everyone being discipled. I think that in everything we would adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.
Sunday, June 7, 2009
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18 comments:
Your title of your post sets up a false dilemma. There is no need for an either/or scenario. It is true the older and more mature Christians are clearly called to train up the younger and less mature believers up in the ways of the Lord. No one sober-minded Christian denies that this is true. However, it is equally true that younger believers should seek to put themselves under training of a more mature believer. This truth, like most, comes from a carefully reading of the entire Bible. The less mature Christians should seek the more mature Christians and vice versa. I’ll provide you with a basic argument and then respond to some of your logical missteps.
First, it must be acknowledged that while age and wisdom are not equivalents that there is a clear correlation between the two. I think it is important to explain the correlation because it is not always true. There is such a thing as an old fool. Age in itself does not guarantee the acquirement of wisdom. All it promises is that a person will have more time to marinate and settle into their worldview (i.e. their gospel). Age turns wet cement to rock-hard concrete. Thus, this is not merely an issue of age but of spiritual maturity. Why do I labor so long on what would seem to be a self-evident point? I do it because it is critical that this be established before I evaluate the reductio ad absurdum argument you attempt to make regarding the seventy year old man.
Second, I want to poke some holes in your argument about Paul never telling a seventy year-old man to find an older mentor. As previously mentioned, this type of argument is called reductio ad absurdum which is Latin for reduction to the absurd. It is a form of argument in which a proposition is disproven by following its implications to a logical but absurd consequence. You do this by saying it to hold to the “younger must seek the older” position you would hit a snag eventually because there is always a person which no one is older. However, the error in your position is the point which I made in the previous paragraph. Paul is not merely concerned with the age factor as he is with the wisdom factor. I am convinced that Paul would urge a seventy year old man to submit himself to a more mature believer who can disciple him. After all, it is possible that the seventy year old has spent the majority of his years marinating in an anti-gospel worldview and needs a more mature but, perhaps, a numerically younger believer to debug his false concepts. I’m sure there will be cases were there is a man in a fellowship that is wisest and the oldest. However, that does not in anyway diminish the need for younger/less mature men to submit to older/mature men. After all, we can be relatively sure that the oldest-wisest man in the fellowship got that way but yield to the spiritual fathers in his life until they went on to the Lord.
Third, what good is a mature believer that seeks to disciple younger believers if the younger believers are not desirous of his instruction? It takes two to tango. The younger believer must be seeking out the older man as the older man seeks him out. This truth is written across the whole of Scripture. For example, consider just the book of Proverbs. David pleads with his young son throughout Proverbs to hear his father’s instruction (1:8, 2:1, 3:1, etc). Why? Because young men tend to be very prideful and buck against the wisdom of mature believers (2 Tim. 2:22-23). Thus, fathers (both physical and spiritual) often must advise them to heed the counsel of wise (pretty much the entire theme of Proverbs).
In conclusion, I am not saying that Scripture does not instruct older/mature believers to make disciples of the younger/immature believers. I agree with you on this point. It does. However, it is equally clear and logical that a younger/less mature believer ought to seek out the instruction and care of a spiritual father if at all possible. We do not merely need teachers but fathers. That is why Paul says, “For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me.” Just imagine what would happen if the older sought the younger and younger sought the older! Then the church would begin to see some incredible transformation.
I must apologize for all the grammar mistakes in my response. I accidently posted my rough draft instead of my corrected version. Hopefully, you can still follow my argument.
Mike,
I guess we are defining "Seek" differently. I agree with Peter, "Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older."
But Paul's admonish to Titus is a different animal. There, the older are to "seek out," or let me use a different word for clarification "teach" and "train"...the younger, of course.
The young are not to "go out" teaching and training the older, but merely to place themselves under the authority of the older.
To word things more precise I guess I would say, the older are to seek out the younger to teach; the younger are to submit to the older. I don't believe they are the same thing, but whatev. If you disagree, such is life.
I'm using the word “seek” as Webster's Dictionary defines it--to go in search or quest of. I understood you to be using this definition of seek since it is the definition you employ in the following sentence in the 2nd paragraph, “You could in a very short time assess within a church that young men are encouraged to go out seeking an older man to mentor them.” The word seek is never defined as teaching or training. Thus, you can expect others to misunderstand you when you use a word in a way no one else uses it. However, I’m not entirely concerned with your use of the English language but your theology in this matter. These comments that I am making are not just referring to this post but other conversations we have had on this subject before. The real issue for me can be resolved quite easily. Do you agree that:
“Older/ more mature Christians should go in search or quest of younger/less mature Christians for the purpose of training them. And, conversely, that younger/less mature Christians should go in search or quest of older/more mature Christians for the purpose of being trained.”
A yes or no to that question would settle the matter for me.
I know I frustrate you but that is not my purpose. I love dialog with God’s people.
Your brother in Christ,
Michael
Mike,
My words are clear enough to not warrant a "yes" or "no."
If the older were doing their "job" of seeking out the younger then all bases would be covered. It would then be the responsibility of the younger to submit and surround themselves with those older people who are investing in them.
I know I frustrate you too, like in my above answer. But you know what I mean.
Your brother in Christ,
Carlos
Carl,
I'm asking you to clarify your position so that I understand you. Perhaps, you have been exceedingly clear and I am exceedingly dense. So, why not help a brother out?
I get that you agree with the following statement:
"Older/ more mature Christians should go in search or quest of younger/less mature Christians for the purpose of training them."
However, I do NOT know if you agree with this following statement:
"Younger/less mature Christians should go in search or quest of older/more mature Christians for the purpose of being trained."
Do you agree? If not why?
Thanks for your willingness to continue your public teaching ministry through these comments.
Mike,
Your quote - "Younger/less mature Christians should go in search or quest of older/more mature Christians for the purpose of being trained."
I believe this is overemphasized. We are living in a day and age where the latter ["Older/ more mature Christians should go in search or quest of younger/less mature Christians for the purpose of training them"] is not being emphasized, taught, or lived out in large proportions. I believe it is vain to appeal to the young to go out on a quest for older people in such a time as this.
Let me tell you a short story. A good friend of mine just enrolled at Teen Challenge. He is 19. A forty-some year old couple is visiting him there at least once a week. They are seeking to disciple and love him. He did not go out and find them; they found him and invested in him. Hopefully, in return he will go out and do the same.
I find no good reason not to preach such a Gospel as Paul did to Titus. In addition, I find no good reason to jump on the bandwagon and call younger people to run around on a quest to find older people, despite your reasoning.
I will preach what the Scriptures proclaim clearly, giving due recognition to the Holy Spirit's emphasis'.
LAstly, I am not against seeking counsel as that is wisdom for all ages and from all types of ages. But that is a different animal we are dealing with altogether.
Thanks for your willingness to continue your public teaching ministry through these comments.
Carl,
You said, “I believe this is overemphasized. We are living in a day and age where the latter is not being emphasized, taught, or lived out in large proportions. I believe it is vain to appeal to the young to go out on a quest for older people in such a time as this.”
Finally, we get to the crux of the issue! I believe that you have a tendency, as demonstrated on this blog, to form your theological position as a reaction to a current practice in the church. I think you would agree that at some point we need to “steady the swinging pendulum” that swings from one over-emphasis/under-emphasis to another. We cannot be mere reactionaries if we are to bring meaningful reformation to American Christianity. This is why I push against you when you write an unbalanced and unclear post such as this one on a public teaching platform (your blog).
There is no reason to de-emphasize a biblical teaching to emphasize another biblical teaching. All doctrines will be complementary if they are in fact are truly Biblical. The Bible clearly teaches that less-mature disciples must seek discipleship from more-mature mentors and more-mature mentors must seek less-mature individuals to disciple. Why is that so hard to get you to agree to these complementary truths? Your answer seems to be that it is hard to agree with it because some or even most churches only practice half of the equation. So, what is your answer but to do the exact same thing with the opposite half of the equation? Why not be Biblical and practice both?
I do care about the doctrine at hand but the real issue with me has always been your sloppy hermeneutics. I never question your sincerity but frankly is doesn’t matter. You are held to a higher standard because you have appointed yourself as a teacher of God’s Word and called disciples under your own authority (James 3:1).
I hope you see where I am coming in this matter. I come in brotherly love but brother can tussle a bit because they are family, right?
"Why not be Biblical and practice both?" Because young people should not go out seeking someone to mentor them. If the older do their jobs, no young person would need to go out seeking anyone because people would be investing in their lives.
When there is an issue within the church, we must deal with it; Paul did the same. His letters speak to the issues of the day. Each letter was different as each situation in each city was different.
My post is no different. I will continue to do what GOD has appointed me to do. Your estimations are inaccurate about me. I would appreciate you not using my blog as your soapbox to exploit me. Wisdom would call you to start leaving well enough alone. Your tidiness is devisive. Make sure this one goes on your status.
I hope you see where I am coming in this matter. I come in brotherly love but brother can tussle a bit because they are family, right?
Carl,
I will never “leave well enough alone” when it comes to you because then I would be an unfaithful friend. I will seek to encourage you when you are right on as did on a previous post you wrote a week or two ago. Conversely, I will hold you to account when you publicly post something that is anti-Scriptural. If you can take compliments, you can take fair criticisms, right? People are allowed to disagree with you on your blog, right?
Also, I am not trying to exploit you. Exploit means to use or manipulate to one's advantage. What do I gain for this but more of disdain? Most people reading this do not understanding why this is even a big issue in connection to you particularly. They probably think I am crazy. Moreover, you and everyone else want me to let you go on and do your own thing. Honestly, I kind of do to because it would make a hard life much easier. But, I won’t because you are a brother and a friend.
“Because young people should not go out seeking someone to mentor them. If the older do their jobs, no young person would need to go out seeking anyone because people would be investing in their lives.”
Your first sentence is false but I will grant you it for the sake of raising a problem with the second sentence. Most older Christians are not faithful in seeking out the younger believers. So, what do the younger believers do? According to you, it would seem that he should not stress about it and just disciple a younger believer. But, what of their development that they are being deprive of? Do they just lose out? Why not seek out one of the few faithful men so that they can grow into a well-disciple godly man quicker?
“Your tidiness is divisive.”
You are right. My tidiness or attention to detail is divisive. Be reminded that the Catholic most common charge against the Protestant is that they are divisive. When comes to truth we get divisive. Our allegiance is to the Word of God not some absence-of-conflict-fake-unity. Paul tells us, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” We handle it with care and precision.
I have a status for you. It sums it all up.
I have a status for you:
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for A PERSON WHO STIRS UP division, after warning him once and then twice, have NOTHING more to do with him...
And...
But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a MEDDLER.
Consider these a warning.
Carl,
We should definitely avoid people her stir of division but, of course, in the following chapter Paul says, “reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.” We have a communal responsibility to hold each other accountable to the Word of God. I can see from your repeated unfriendly sarcasm that you do not care much for my reproving you. Regardless, my case stands for the discerning reader to consider. I have conducted myself in a respectful manner. I hope you will reconsider how you handle Scripture in this matter and others.
By the way, since you are unable to see my Facebook status update I mentioned earlier I’ll share it with you here:
“Michael Foster is thankful old friends and will remain faithful to them no matter the personal cost to my reputation.” 3 hours ago
Correction:
We should definitely avoid people "that" stir "up" division but...
Mike, while I agree with your points about both younger and older should seek out mentors and mentorees and I agree it is Biblical, I exhort you to show more grace in the way you are correcting our brother in the Lord, Carl. In your first blog you wrote the following harsh words:
1. "No one sober-minded Christian denies that this is true." -sounds to me like you are implying Carl is NOT sober minded based on your disagreement with him. Is this the point or shouldn't you stay on point of arguing the issue at hand?
2. "This truth, like most, comes from a carefully reading of the entire Bible." -this comment seems to imply Carl has not carefully read the entire Bible or implies you HAVE read it more carefully than he. This is not important to making your point and should be avoided for the sake of kindly exhorting your brother.
3. "before I evaluate the reductio ad absurdum argument you attempt to make regarding the seventy year old man." -these straight up sound like fighting words in an intellectual battle. Seriously Mike do you have to insult Carl in order to "exhort" or correct his theology?
4. You use again the "reductio ad absurdum" phrase, inciting anger instead of staying on your point.
Carl, I agree with Mike here that you can't let the current state of the church affect your theology, as the argument became near the end of this blog. To say the older must seek out the younger only, is shortsighted. Your example of the 19 year old who is being mentored at Teen Challenge is not a solid argument because being confined to a halfway house doesn't exactly present many opportunities for him to seek out mentors.
I am not really sure how this became such a big argument but because I see arguments like this on facebook and your's and Mike's blogs often, I am pleading with you both to seek peace with each other.
This issue of this particular blog should not be one that divides you from focusing more attention on the lost and spreading the Gospel that we all agree on the foundational points. And no Mike this does not mean I think you should not exhort and correct. I am just asking that you try to both do it in love.
Honestly do you think any of your non-Christian friends would read these blogs and not make fun of both of you for the way you talk to each other?
Kurt,
Thanks for your contribution!
Brother, I’m definitely open to your correction. I have labored hard to steer clear of sarcasm and harshness so that my point would not be mistaken for personal grievance but rather a Scriptural conviction. You know I enjoy sarcasm and I think you can see where I purposely past up several opportunities to interject a sarcastic barb for the sake of the issue at hand. I think you may be hearing me wrong:
1. I am saying that anyone that says young Christians need no seek a mentor lacks Scriptural sobriety. This is on point as I have said this is not just an issue of the doctrine at hand but how he arrived to his conclusions (hermeneutics).
2. My point was that we must come to conclusion based on theology that takes into account the entire testimony of Scripture and not just Titus 2. Hence, “this truth, like most, comes from a carefully reading of the entire Bible.”
3 & 4. I do not quite follow how stating what form of argument (reductio ad absurdum) a person is using is an insult. It is merely a statement. It carries no moral judgment. I use the reductio ad absurdum approach all the time. Perhaps, you do not follow me or I don’t follow you. Could you elaborate how this is an insult?
Does that clear those points up?
I do not fault you for seeking to be a peacemaker. However, this is NOT about anything other than issues I have previously mentioned. There is no secret agenda or axe to grind. This is just about faulty hermeneutic that lead to an equally faulty doctrinal exhortation on a public teaching platform. There will be no peace on that particular point until it is properly addressed.
Lastly, this is an issue of how we practice discipleship in the church and is therefore worthy of some serious discussion. Non-Christians know we argue. Lets show them that we really care about the truth and that rightly dividing the Word is important to us!
Kurt,
THANK YOU so much for commenting. I have tried to maintain my gentleness and respect and humility, despite what Mike has done. A clear reading to anyone on the comments I think nail the colors to the mast. Mike, this will always prevent your effectiveness as a gospel minister so I exhort you to mature in love.
Secondly, "This issue of this particular blog should not be one that divides you from focusing more attention on the lost and spreading the Gospel that we all agree on the foundational points." I will nail my colors to the mast on this great point - Mike, you no longer are a partner in this with me. You changed, not me. In October, I made some decisions that I was forced to make [that were right by the way] and you departed from unity for the Gospel. Until you change, I will avoid what divides Gospel work in Northern KY.
LAstly, Kurt, I would love your Scripture references exhorting young men to seek out older men. This is something Mike has not done yet. I made a simple claim and it has not been refuted with Scripture yet. If someone can prove this to me then I will joyfully change. I have not changed my theology because of an issue in the church. It has just become apparant to what I have always believed as many people started saying, "young people should seek out older people."
Carl,
You increasingly attempt to make this look like some sort of attempt at character assassination. It isn't. You continue avoid the issue and try to make this something purely personal. It isn't. You try to play the victim. You aren't. This is about your hermeneutic as demonstrated in this post and elsewhere on this blog. I think you just do not like someone questioning your authority and will slanderously label them as "departing from the unity of the gospel." However, disagreeing with you is not the same as departing from the gospel. I have had to write these many comments because it is difficult to get you to answer an sincere question with a straight answer. I wish I didn't have to pursue you so hard to get you to show your cards openly but I do.
Keep this about truth. Do not make this about something that it is not.
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